Meh. I remember when Decom was actually fun to go to. Now its a pain in the ass. Said ass pain started and developed in a similar fashion.

as i've heard things there's already been talk of having fire photos for sale at the event, which to my mind means we've already stepped beyond point of nothing but fire/flow toys and drums. at some point the cut off line stops being about what is appropriate and becomes who is offering it. black and white distinctions may seem to rigid, but shades of gray have this way of drifting away from the original intention. All my love to Sky and the other organizers, but i've seen too many great intentions get out of control no matter how well thought out or how well meaning the people who wanted just a little something more were at the outset.

The last three posts pretty much summed up where my thinking was headed. Randy, FA and Wynn and made excellent statements and if I were to chime in (which I suppose I'm doing), my thoughts would be interlaced between those three posts.

Peace,
- Sui

Sam:

That is basically what I was trying to say in my earlier post. Teaching a workshop and offering tools to purchase after said workshop is fine with me. I just don't want to see booths, fashion police, or such. I've bought items at Fire Drums past and appreciate when a couple of those entrepreneurs are there. The fact is that at other events (cough*Burning Man*cough) I've bought toys, goggles, etc. But it happened in a P2P (read: discrete) fashion. Flowtoys rock, and their inventors are good friends. I've bought stuff from FA, and they're good people.

Perhaps I'm envisioning a row of booths and people competing against each other, which can breed ill will at an event that is supposed to unite. So would that entail awarding franchises? This booth is the exclusive fan booth? That booth is the exclusive poi booth? That doesn't sound right either as perhaps the guy that makes poi also makes bad ass fans that have yet to be introduced to the market. I'd much rather it continue in the fashion that it has. Alternatively, in the spirit of avoiding a flea market feel, peeps can set up their wares by their campsite as opposed to the burn area.

I don't always chime in but I'm here and keeping up with your ideas and thoughts. I like to put something out there and let it get spun around for a bit. This is being put out for everyones discussion so we can make this a group / community / family choice. Though I am leaning in favor of having vendors, it's not absolute, but there are also various possibilities. So let me make some things absolutely clear how this would work, if it actually did come to be.
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1) The vendors will not be setting up huge tents with megaphones blasting out "get yur red hot firedrumz n toys, step right up, big sale".
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2) Many of the vendors, as last year, will be offering workshops.
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3) The vendors will ONLY be offering the tools that we will all be using at the gathering. Some new people aren't as familiar and need to be offered the opportunity to learn what's out there. Learning and sharing are after all, the foundation of what FireDrums is about. And some experienced people often want the opportunity to try other manufacturers gear. You just can't do that via a web site.
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4) There will not be at this or any other time EVER an expansion of the above policy. No duv, no ''special construction fire dance clothing", no jewelry, zip, notta, nuthin, no where, no how, no way, EVER. And no food vending. It was tried and it's just not where we want to go with this. I understand many peoples concerns after last year, but sometimes you need give something a chance. Just because we gave it a try doesn't mean that anything goes and it's free reign and open sales season. Can we get a little credit for being capable of keeping things on track, or at least getting them back on track.
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5) The vendors will be located in a place that is both accessible yet not ''in your face''. This means we have some further discussion about location, for which I think we have a very 'effective' and yet 'considerate' location planned.

Please DON"T ASSUME OR SPECULATE what could happen. If it were all about capitalism, FireDrums would never have been and we'd haven never met. Because so far there's been considerable expense to make the gatherings happen and none have made a profit or even recouped the personal expenses and monetary outlay, , not even close.

Enough of that for now, , but I want to make another very clear distinction. Many of us have met and developed friendships at BurningMan. Mantras like Leave No Trace are a part of many individual lives and even more a part of entire communities. FireDrums is also a LNT gathering by the way. There's many wonderful aspects of BurningMan that many of us know, love and live by. But FIREDRUMS IS NOT BURNINGMAN OR ANYTHING LIKE IT. It was never meant to be and never will be another 'burner' event. There's no big show, no fireworks, no effigy, no art cars and furry bikes, no glowy (or at least minimal) furry fashion, and no direct relation to the ethos of no commercialism. Commercialism isn't bad in and of itself. To pretend that I'm ever getting away from it is just that, , pretending. It cost money to rent the camp, it cost money to travel there, it costs money to live life. It's about how we present ourselves and interact to and with others. Honest trading, bartering and yes, vending is part of our life. As I say above, we've never made money and don't plan to make this a big profitable event. But there are people who do make their living teaching the crafts and providing the tools we play with. If this is to be a truely community, family gathering, I can't think of anyone I'd rather support than those friends and family that are a direct part of and help in making this happen.
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Thanx for listening, thanx for sharing.
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And please don't take this as the end of this discussion. Please keep the dialogue flowin.

blessings
Sky

"what is so anti capitalist about thousands of white people driving gasoline combustion engines sometimes thousands of miles to attend an event that requires tickets that cost like three hundred dollars????"

you are financing A LOT at burning man, you get a lot for your money, and not much if any goes to profit fat cats who don't give a shit. also, don't dis the mass of non-white people who go by leaving them out of your picture. once you're there, it's a very communitarian village atmosphere, and money is not allowed except to buy ice and cold beverages. it's a transformative experience for many people. your point is clever, and certainly worth considering, but you really should go and then speak about it from your direct experience. tix have never been $300 and you could probably get a low-cost one by either hooking up with a group performing fire there in the great circle or something, or by applying. i think volunteers get a break as well.

When the idea first came about to have workshops on fire spinning at fire drums there was similar claims that it would destroy the organic vibe of the event.

blah.

I love the idea of supporting people selling tools, duvs, spare parts, food, beautiful fire safe costumes, massage (ahem, you know you'd be down for that after three days of intense workshops and all night fire jams.... ) and YES dvds. I dig the idea of being able to take away new toys, at home workshops, get a massage and a raw cake at midnight... and WHATEVER HELPS THE COMMUNITY SUPPORT ITSELF.

There are many people turning fire arts into more than a hobby... a full time career. To me that's a great thing if you want nothing more to make fire toys, perform, make fantastic costumes. My question is how can we further enhance this option. This is an opportunity to make this a greater possibility.

People griped about the workshops when it was first brought up, now it's something we are drooling over months in advance (I'm i just speaking for myself... well, maybe)

Anyway, there's my two pesos.

btw- Being on the east coast is no excuse for not coming out this year!! I know u handled like five shifts last time, but I can match n raise you one more this time round. u'll be the official FD pack mule givin out piggy back rides taking us too n fro wherever we need to go

giddy up!